From writer/director/producerChloé Zhao,The Ridertells a heartbreakingly beautiful and intimate story of what it’s like for a young cowboy and once rising star of the rodeo circuit when he suffers a tragic riding accident that means his competition days are over. Left to wonder what he has to live for when he can no longer do the thing that gives his life purpose, Brady (played by real-life cowboyBrady Jandreau) searches for a new identity and a new way to work with the horses that he has long admired.
During this 1-on-1 phone interview with Collider, filmmaker Chloé Zhao talked about what a real labor of loveThe Riderwas to make, how her first film,Songs My Brothers Taught Me, led to this one, working with Brady and the Jandreau family, what she learned about the modern American cowboy through this experience, what she’s hoping to do next, as a filmmaker, how she went from studying political science to attending film school, and why it’s always a fight to bring your own vision to life, in the film industry.
Collider: I tremendously enjoyed this movie, which I know you’ve been hearing a lot lately, but I am happy to join the choir of that!
CHLOE ZHAO: Thank you!
A movie like this seems like it must be a real labor of love. What’s it like to have a finished film that you can not only be proud of as an artist, but that you’ve already been receiving all this overwhelmingly positive acclaim and praise for?
ZHAO: It’s really nice. When we were making the film, none of us expected any of this. Sometimes I feel like, the closer we feel, the more truthful we feel, the less success we’re going to have. This is a very nice surprise.
It sounds like your first film,Songs My Brothers Taught Me, lead you to this film. Is that the case, or do you feel like this movie would have happened, even without that film? Do you feel like you might have eventually gotten here, one way or another?
ZHAO: I don’t think so. I think there’s just too many layers of things, all the way from even just being interested in cowboys, without any feeling of being an outsider and just hanging out on a ranch like that. Also, it’s been almost four years, in the building, for me, when it comes to how my relationship from that part of the country and nature, in general, has changed. It wouldn’t feel the same.
You first met the star of your movie, Brady Jandreau, in 2015 and wrote this film around him. What was it about him that compelled you enough to do that, and then to actually have him in the film?
ZHAO: I was pretty certain, even within the first week that I met him, that I could make a film with him. I just had no idea what that film was going to be. I was so drawn to his presence and also just watching him interact with the environment around him, from working with horses to talking to people. Somebody can just command your attention and they’re just watchable, and he’s like that. I was so eager to put a camera on him. And then, when he got injured, there was finally a story that I felt was going to be good enough.
What was his reaction to all of this. Did he think you were crazy, or was he game for it?
ZHAO: I don’t think he thought about it, so much. If I make him try fermented tofu or a thousand-year-old egg – you know, the ones that are Chinese – he’s like, “Oh, what the hell,” and he tries it. He is really open to new experiences. He didn’t take me that seriously, at the beginning, but the more I made progress, the more he realized we were actually doing this. He came along pretty naturally.
Was it more nerve-wracking for you to show to the finished film to Brady and his family and friends, or were you more nervous, the first time you showed it to an audience that didn’t take part in making it?
ZHAO: I was very nervous showing it to an audience, just because we premiered in Cannes, basically a couple months after Trump was in office. So, forget about where I stand politically, but I had to go to a country like France to see how much they even wanted to relate to a cowboy from South Dakota. I was really worried, but one of my favorite things about this whole experience is how much we all really want to relate to each other, at a time like this, instead of believing in the politicians telling us that we should be hating each other.
What did you learn about the modern American cowboy, from making this film, and what do you hope audiences learn about that, from watching the film?
ZHAO: The biggest thing I learned is that they’re not that different than the rest of us. There’s a really delicate, complex, bittersweet struggle between modernity and this way of life that inevitably is going to have to not necessarily disappear, but reinvent itself somehow. For these young people, especially at that age, to figure where they belong in the world, is a very delicate thing and depends on each person.
From talking to Brady about his life, what did you also learn about the psychological impact that injuries like the one he experienced can have on someone like him?
ZHAO: The head injury, on its own, is already complicated enough. And then, on top of that, you take away the one thing that defines him. Brady is single-minded when it comes to that. There’s one thing that he’s been doing, his whole life. That’s a double whammy. And on top of that, the only thing that gives him a sense of purpose is also being challenged. So, there’s a lot.
I love the moment in the film where Brady explains that it’s only because he’s human that he was allowed to continue living with this injury and that, if he were an animal, he would have been put down. It really puts that into perspective.
ZHAO: Especially out there because, when you live close to nature and you’re more of a reflection of nature. In nature, usually things are focused on one or two purposes, and they are essentially what they are. They don’t have these added things that we have been creating for ourselves. For Brady, and a lot of people out there, there’s a singular way to exist, and when that’s taken away, there’s no reason to live.
How did you find the experience, as a filmmaker, of working with him and getting the performance you wanted from him, knowing that he had no acting experience?
ZHAO: That line between some of the professionals and someone who hasn’t done it before is really fine for me. It’s not a very definitive line, if there’s a line, at all, for me. When you’re trained, you know a lot of technical stuff, but that kind of stuff can be very intuitive to somebody else. There could also be someone who is really intuitive, but also trained. Brady exists somewhere in his intuition, and natural talent does make up for the lack of technical experience, like knowing how to hit a mark. That stuff is easy to teach.
Are you surprised that he’s wanted to continue acting, or is that something that you could see him start to really enjoy?
ZHAO: I’m not surprised. I think there is showmanship to being a horseman. Doing a rodeo and selling a horse, or even presenting himself to a horse, is selling himself to the horse, for the horse to trust him. And Brady supports a family, so he needs to make a living. He has a daughter now, and acting is less dangerous.
What was it like to work with his sister, Lilly, who has Asperger’s? Were there things that you did to make her feel comfortable and safe enough to be on camera?
ZHAO: Well, you can’t really not make it to safe for Lil because she isn’t going to do anything that she doesn’t want to do. It’s more like, how we can work with Lil and let her be herself, and still have her be relevant to the movie. That was pretty much in the writing process. It was the same, every time we worked with a horse. It’s a long process. Because we shot on real locations, we had to worry about the weather and other people working on the ranch. It was the same with Lane’s disability and Lil, who has autism, and even Brady’s daily schedule. He has to train horses in the morning, for a living. We just wanted to pull back and allow people to exist. There wasn’t one single dominating vision. I had to write a script in a way that Lilly is part of the plot, but that she’s also given a lot of freedom to just do her own thing. I would tell her, “Okay, now Lily, go tell Brady something that’s going to make him feel better, even though he can’t rodeo anymore. Say something like, ‘It’s still gonna be all right.’” And Lil said, “It’s still going to be an A through Z adventure.” To me, that was amazing because I could never write that. It wouldn’t matter how much research I did.
There was also something both heartbreaking and inspiring about watching Brady and Lane together. What was it like for you to not only work with them, but to watch them with each other?
ZHAO: I think back to your first question, and it wouldn’t have been possible for me to handle them like that, if I hadn’t made my first film because there were some really intense real life situations that happened. The young girl’s home got burned down, in the middle of the shoot, and then we shot what was left of her home, for the very first time. It was so intense and hard, in that moment, especially to harness the emotions and be able to calm down and verify you get coverage and make sure you get enough, so that those scenes could work in the edit. That was really difficult. For Lane, I had to remind myself, and Brady reminded me, as well, just to treat him like you would treat everybody else. I only met him the night before the film. He and I talked on Facebook. I had to trust Brady because they have been best friends since they were two years old. I had to just make it work. Lane gets more tired than Brady, but I think he appreciated, in the end, being treated like everybody else. He’s tough, but I had to make sure I was also not victimizing him. Those are hard things to do.
Do you have any idea what you’re going to do next, as a director, or is that something you’re currently trying to figure out?
ZHAO: BecauseThe Riderwas such a quick movie to make, from developing to the end, I have been working on a couple of projects, while I was doing the writer. One of them is a film about the U.S. Deputy Marshall Bass Reeves. Bass Reeves was born into slavery and escaped in the Civil War. He actually lived among the Native Americans, in Indian territory, at the time, and became a Marshall working in Indian territory, during the Old West, in the 1800s. So, it’s a historic western, and I’m really excited about that one. And then, I’ve got a small, intimate movie and a sci-fi movie.
So, you’re all over the map then?
ZHAO: Yeah, in the past, future and present. A little of everything. We’ll see what sticks.
Was that just the next natural step for you, to make a movie where you couldn’t put the people you were telling the story of in it?
ZHAO: Very good observation. Yes. The thing that I love about the Bass Reeves story is that he was a black Marshall, he could speak the languages of the five civilized tribes, and he was in Indian territory. It’s just such a complicated time in the Old West, that we have forever been talking about, in our music, movies and books because it’s such an important time, where our national identity was shaped. It’s usually very simplified, the way that time period has been talked about. I really want to go back in there with the knowledge and lessons that I’ve learned, from making my first two films, to redo the historic western genre and to bring a level of intimacy and a different perspective to how to tell these stories.
You studied political science before going into film production at NYU. What’s the story there? How did you realize that you needed to make that change?
ZHAO: Growing up, I wanted to tell stories for a living. I wanted to draw manga. That was my thing, and in a way, that’s telling stories in pictures. And then, when I first was in America, I was so ignorant about the country. I needed to know the world better to be able to tell stories about the world. So, I started in politics, but then I realized that I couldn’t deal with politics, so I moved to New York and just did nothing for a couple years. I bar tended, but I knew I had to do something with my life, so I went to film school.
Do you feel like there’s more of an openness toward you now, as a female filmmaker, that allows you to tell the stories you want to tell, or do you think it will always be a fight, whether it’s getting a project going in a predominantly male industry, or getting the money to tell the stories you want to tell, or using the actors that might not be big money draws at the box office?
ZHAO: I think there’s always going to be a fight, if you want to make a film, as an individual. If you want to go with the trend and make a film, as a minority filmmaker of some kind, and also make films that fit the agenda of today or of the year, that’s probably easier. I’ve seen friends doing that and getting their project lifted off the ground. I’ve been offered things like that. Especially as a woman, I think it’s really important to be treated as equals, but also as individuals. The industry is male. That’s just the reality of it. Even the way films are made and what they’re about is all male. It’s almost like they have a house that’s been built and even if I’m invited into that, I still have to follow their rules. So, I’d rather fight super hard and be bleeding all over the place, so that I can build a house next to it, and then I’ll climb in the window. If you want to have an individual voice and be authentic, in that way, you’re always going to have to fight.
